Keeper.com interview with Elissa Stein, author and advocate, www.FlowtheBook.com and www.ElissaStein.com
Click here to listen to the interview with Elissa Stein.
SHOW NOTES: The numbers on the left refer to minutes. So "00:00 to 1:30" means that this segment occurs for 1-1/2 minutes, from the beginning of the audio.
Introduction: 00:00 to 1:30
Hello. This is Julia Schopick, welcoming you to another in Keeper.com's audio interview series.
Today, I'd like to welcome Elissa Stein, the co-author, with Susan Kim, of a wonderful new book, FLOW: The Cultural Story of Menstruation. FLOW, published by St. Martin's Press, has gotten excellent reviews, and has been called - among other things: "revolutionary," "important," "groundbreaking," and "a breakthrough." And Elissa's favorite review, Donna Chavez's review in Booklist says: "There is probably no better book for moms who want their daughters to respect themselves in every aspect."
Elissa has written several books before FLOW, some in the pop culture genre, including Stewardess, Prom Night, Beauty Queen and Cheerleader.
In addition to writing, Elissa runs her own graphic design business. In her spare time, she practices yoga, knits, and shops for vintage coats on eBay. Her next book, about aging, will be titled WRINKLE: the Cultural Story of Aging.
Before we begin, I'd like to say that FLOW is probably the most beautiful, well designed, well written - and even FUNNY - book I've read in a long time.
Welcome to Keeper.com, Elissa.
Elissa: Julia, first of all, what a wonderful introduction. And it's a pleasure to be here to talk to you today.
1:30 to 4:55
Discussion of how Elissa decided to write FLOW, a book about menstruation, as a result of a very personal experience: Several years ago, her period stopped for a year. She went to a doctor who gave her a pack of hormones to "jump start" her period. This infuriated her, because she knew that, while pills might take care of the symptoms, they would not address the cause of the problem, which was anorexia. But at that time in her life, she was scared, and lost, and so, she wasn't able to ask for real help.
It was at this point that she started to get glimmers of what FLOW would be about, and how it would help people. She wrote the book because she felt that people shouldn't be afraid to have this conversation about menstruation. She saw a need for a book that would help start the conversation, making women more comfortable about talking about their bodies, and about menstruation.
4:55 to 5:13
A discussion of the problem with "modern medicine" - i.e., that doctors are too quick to simply give a prescription, without trying to find the cause of the problem.
5:13 to 7:00
Elissa's husband took it upon himself to do some research. He researched Chinese herbs and acupuncture. She started taking an herb called dong quai, a uterine toner. Within a month, her period came back. And for the first time in almost two years (she had been on the pill, off the pill), her period came back healthy and strong and she became pregnant the next month. The amazing thing about this is that she had been talking with doctors about her lack of periods, and they were sure that - in order for her to get pregnant - she would need fertility drugs!! In other words, they'd be able to "chemically make it happen." But, with this natural herb, and taking care of her body, and helping her body to heal this way, she's been fine for years now. This was a real eye-opener about listening to your body, and about alternatives to conventional Western medicine.
One of the main messages of this book is that women should question. We should not absorb these messages from doctors and from ads that we've been force-fed for years. These messages have shaped how we think about our bodies, and about menstruation. We should think first, and ask questions: "What other opportunities are out there for me? Are the choices I'm making my choices? Or am I buying into choices that have been made for me by other people?"
7:00 to 8:25
A great story about how Elissa's daughter's best friend became more open about discussing menstruation with her own Mom, after hearing Elissa speak at a presentation she gave at her Yoga studio. This little girl (11 years old) had never wanted to discuss anything like menstruation with her Mom. After hearing Elissa speak about FLOW, she and her Mom are now reading the book every night, and discussing it. And she is piping up with lots and lots of questions, and facts and stories. She is completely engaged about many topics discussed in the book, including women's rights, mythology, where these ideas and mindsets came from, etc. A complete turnaround.
8:25 to 10:00
Someone wrote in a review of FLOW that FLOW isn't just a book about menstruation. It is looking at women's history through the LENS of menstruation. So, another powerful message in FLOW is that learning about the bigger picture - about how the advertising and the product design and the images that we see all the time, which shape how we think and feel -- are really important. Some discussion here about how her previous books, although they seemed on the surface to be about fluffy topics (prom queens, stewardesses, etc.), were really about women's roles, and the limitations presented by those roles by society.
10:00 to 11:40
History's perception of menstruation: i.e., prejudice against menstruating women. Some of these prejudices: that menstrual blood kills insects, causes fruit to fall off the trees. A discussion of the condition of "hysteria" being related to the uterus. ("The Wandering Uterus").
Some of the reasons these misperceptions cropped up throughout history: there was no rational explanation for the fact that once a month a woman would bleed, seemingly for no reason, and that, when she stopped bleeding for 9 months, a baby would come. So people had to come up with some kind of explanation for that - the same way that they came up with gods and goddesses. Menstruation was an unexplainable.
11:40 to 13:28
More on "The Wandering Uterus." Elissa wrote an article about it on the website, www.wondersandmarvels.com. People used to believe that the uterus was the only organ that didn't have a counterpart in the male body, and that the uterus wandered around a woman's body searching for a baby. The "wandering uterus" was also what caused all kinds of distress in a woman's body. So, if she had respiratory problems, it was because the uterus had climbed up into her throat. If she was having intestinal discomfort, it was because the uterus was playing around in her intestines. For this so-called condition, doctors would prescribe really disgusting drinks to try to force the uterus back down where it belonged. And sometimes they put sweet salves on a woman's vulva, trying to coax it back into place.
They also believed that the uterus was the seat of a woman's emotional center; that women weren't controlled by their brains. And this mindset went on until the 1900s. Hysteria was actually a medical diagnosis until 1951. And, therefore, hysteria was a collection of symptoms for which nobody knew the cause. And of course, only women were purported to have these symptoms.
Tidbit: The Greek word for uterus is HYSTERA. So the word hysteria comes from the Greek word for uterus, because they believed that a woman's out-of-control emotions and physical symptoms were caused by an out-of-control uterus.
13:28 to 15:20
The language connected with menstruation: In the US, we have "the curse," "on the rag," etc. There are similar expressions all over the world.
Religious prejudices against menstruation. Judaism says women are unclean while menstruating, as do most religions, except Buddhism. Religion is one of the MAJOR "unsupporters" of religion, based on the fact that women menstruate, and are, therefore, unclean. And if a man touches a woman when she is menstruating, he, too, is unclean.
Discussion of the Bible, the Church, most religions. While menstruating, women are not welcome in many religious houses of worship. We've taken on this mindset ourselves. The conversation about menstruation has been shut down for so many years from so many different directions. So, FLOW is hopefully a step in making the wall come down a bit.
15:20 to 17:40
Ads influence people so much. They are a huge lure. This is part of the reason that Elissa wanted beautiful ads in the book. She tells the story about how, a few years ago, when her children were 10 and 7, they loved a commercial for NuvaRing, even though they had no idea what the product was. They loved it because of the dancing women, the colors - the beauty of the ad. In the ad, a woman takes off her constricting bathing suit; ends up just wearing a bikini and jumping in the pool. The idea is that she is no longer constricted, because she has broken away from having to remember to take birth control pills, thanks to her NuvaRing. What a message for KIDS to see! (This was on TV during Kid-TV time!!) But this, and many birth control ads today are saying, essentially, that the natural cycles our bodies go through are "inconvenient."
17:40 to 19:00
The pharmaceutical influence over writers of books on the topic. Example: 1966: Feminine Forever, by Robert Wilson. He started the whole Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) industry with this book. In it, he said that women would become decrepit crones, if they didn't take HRT; that these drugs kept women from showing signs of aging, and prevented cancer and heart disease. It turned out that he was wrong, and many women ended up having breast cancer because of taking these drugs for years. It also later turned out that he was being paid by drug companies to write the book. (His son told this, years later, after Wilson committed suicide.) His book was almost an infomercial.
19:00 to 20:00
Drug companies really know that these drugs are not completely safe; that they have side effects. But the advertising campaigns minimize the side effects. Our society is kind of trained NOT to think; to believe advertisers. We don't seem to realize that advertisers are paid to sell a particular message!
20:00 to 22:50
Menstrual suppression drugs, which are now on the market, give you a "period" every 3-4 months, or not at all. They haven't been researched long enough to make sure they're safe. Also, these menstrual suppression drugs do NOT allow you to have a real period! But women don't really know this. What sloughs off is NOT a full uterine lining. QUESTION to ponder: What happens to women if they take these drugs for a long time, and thus, don't ovulate for a long time? In this case, the uterus and ovaries are NOT performing the way they were meant to do, and we don't know what long-term effects will be.
22:50 to 26:20
Tampon and other femcare ads made women feel awful about their periods - that they were smelly and embarrassing. Douching was being advertised a lot. One product advertised for douching was Lysol!! The idea was to water the Lysol down in warm water and use it as a douch. People believed that a vagina was so germ-laden that women needed Lysol to clean them and make them desirable. It was proven, by the way, that using Lysol this way killed off good bacteria, too. Also, women thought Lysol would kill sperm if they douched with it after sex. This was false, of course. Lots of these ads were "for married women only, for morning after freshness."
Elissa learned that, around 1933, visiting nurses were sent to "educate" newly married women in geographical areas where they didn't have access to medical care, about how to douche properly. It was believed that, without douching, marriages would fail.
26:20 to 28:40
Today, more women talk about menstruation. Elissa's mother, and her mother's mother, didn't talk about it. Their fears were passed along to today's women. Elissa grew up thinking that you couldn't go swimming if you had your period. She knew this wasn't true, but it was internalized. Her daughter told her that this was ridiculous, and now Elissa swims when she has her period. So we have to get to girls early, before this internalized shame develops.
Countless ads made women feel ashamed of being "found out" as having their periods. So the idea of these ads was that "your secret" (menstruation) will be safe if you use our products; that our products will help you hide the fact that you have your period.
28:40 to 34:00
Before the 1920s, commercial menstrual products didn't exist. Before this, women were on their own. Some used boiled rags. In an interview a month ago, a woman in the South said she remembered "Boiling Day," when all the women living on a particular street would boil their menstrual rags and hang them on the line between 2 white sheets, so that no one could see the rags. All the men would go away for that day; it was a communal women's activity. Elissa had never heard of this before. This is so interesting because stories about what women did just don't exist, because menstruation was so shameful, and no one really wrote about what women did anyway.
Julia suggested that, on her site, Elissa have women submit their stories (like the "Boiling Day" story). She loved the idea.
The first Kotex went on sale in 1920. It was the first major menstrual product. The reason it was developed is that cellulose (a cotton derivative that absorbed blood better, and was used in bandages) was left over from World War 1, and the company needed to find a new use for it.
Women also used to wear a rubber apron, tied around the waste. The blood dripped down in the back. Kleinerts had a line of rubber products, such as rubber bloomers.
Underwear didn't exist, so Elissa's theory is that women wore many petticoats to absorb the menstrual blood.
INTERESTING FACTS:
- Kotex went on sale the same year as women got the right to vote.
- Beltless pads came out in the early 1970s, around the same time as the Women's Liberation Movement.
- Tampax was introduced in the early 1930s.
34:00 to 35:00
At some point, advertisers started to go straight to the girls, circumventing the moms. Elissa remembers Kotex coming into the classrooms. It was really a schoolroom infomercial in the gym. The girls saw a movie. She was 10 then, and was completely unnerved by this. They gave the girls a sample kit. The theory is that if you get to a girl early enough, there is an 80% chance that she will not switch brands. So the femcare companies will be able to sell these products to a girl/woman for 40 years!
35:00 to 37:00
A discussion about The Keeper and other alternative menstrual products. When she was little, Elissa didn't know about these alternative products. Her daughter is fascinated by these alternatives -- horrified by how much garbage is created by menstrual product stuff.
I told Elissa about the menstrual product comparison photos on Keeper.com. I pointed out that to show a lifetime use, we needed to use a dump truck!!
Now, Elissa is much more open about when she has her period, and she and her daughter talk about it very openly.
37:00 to 39:00
Why are disposables called "sanitary" products, when they are not sterilized? There is an illusion that they are "sanitary" because they are white and wrapped in plastic. And there is also an illusion that the chemicals that are used in these products to make them "smell good" add to theor cleanliness, which of course, is silly. These chemicals are really detrimental to women. There is a possibility that vulvodynia results from all these chemicals.
Why on earth would we want such a sensitive part of our body -- one that absorbs so much and that houses a baby -- to have chemicals? The FDA doesn't require that these chemicals be listed, either.
I mentioned Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney's bill, The Robin Danielson Act. Ms. Maloney wants independent studies (i.e., studies that are not conducted by the femcare companies that manufacture the products) to be done to determine whether or not disposables are safe. And every year this bill does not go through.
39:00 to 40:40
Elissa heard through the grapevine that People Magazine wouldn't do a story on FLOW and called the topic "squeamish." She found that utterly shocking in that they run ads for menstrual products, AND they also have stories about rape, child drug use and incest - things that she would NOT want her daughter to read about. Yet, she WOULD want her daughter to read about menstruation!
The REDBOOK review of FLOW said, "Snub this one." It told women to go out and buy 3-5 days worth of Ben & Jerry's ice cream instead. It is so shocking that a women's magazine would tell women to binge on sugar and fat, rather than educate themselves about their bodies.
40:40 to 43:50
There is usually an initial quiet, when Elissa brings up the topic of menstruation. One of her favorite stories: Last spring she set a goal for herself to talk about FLOW with one person every single day. She tells the story about talking to a cabdriver about FLOW. He asked what she did for a living. She answered that she had just written a book about menstruation. He became very quiet. Then, after a silence, he said that his wife suffered from terrible hot flashes. He asked Elissa if she knew of anything his wife could do. She told him that one of her friends stands in front of the freezer with the door open. He was so excited about this, and couldn't wait to tell his wife!
I told about how a man entered the contest on the UltimateMoneyBlog website to win a Keeper for his wife, because she just hates using disposables. He won a Keeper! Elissa says she has found men to be far more open to talking about this book than she ever would have imagined. Countless men are buying it for themselves and for the women in their lives.
43:50 to 45:00
I told about how, when The Keeper first came on the market in 1987, no publication would take ads for it. Elissa pointed out that menstrual cups have been around for a long time. She found a magazine from the 1930s, which had photos showing how to insert a menstrual cup.
She feels that maybe it's more difficult to talk about a reusable menstrual cup than about tampons because you have to be more personally engaged with a cup - i.e., taking it out and cleaning it, rather than just tossing it.
There is also a problem in that the companies that make these reusable menstrual products are not big companies. Usually they are smaller, women-owned companies, without huge advertising budgets.
45:00 to 49:00
For many years, the two main voices about "menstrual anything" were men!! First, Harry Finley, Museum of Menstruation. Elissa went to his museum when it was in his basement. For years, he was the "go-to guy" for anything relating to menstruation; a treasure trove of information. She desperately wanted to feature his collection in FLOW. She tried. He has such an amazing collection. People would send him things - like the person whose father designed the first Tampax logo sent that to him. Although he is a lovely man, for his own reasons, he didn't want to be involved with FLOW. The other person was Vinnie, who makes Vinnie's tampon cases and Vinnie's roller coaster menstrual chart. Both are very popular, with graphics. Big sellers. A man talking about menstruation gets listened to. It's harder for a woman.
Why didn't Harry Finley want to be involved with FLOW? Elissa isn't sure, but she thinks that he has his own vision for his collection and his future museum is his vision. And she thinks he doesn't want to have his vision diluted or filtered or involved with other products or other projects. Elissa is sad that he didn't want to be involved, because she visited his museum about 12-15 years ago, and has admired him since then.
Harry Finley's interview with Keeper.com is here.
49:00 to 51:25
I pointed out that FLOW should be used in women's studies programs around the country, too. AND, Elissa is going to be on Dr. Oz's radio show in January! (She was on his show on January 5th, after this interview was recorded.) Read her account of the interview here.
Elissa has done lots of online marketing, including blogging, tweeting, and Facebook:
LINKS:
www.FLOWthebook.com
Elissa's Facebook Page
Elissa's Huffington Post Columns
www.ElissaStein.com
www.youtube.com/flowthebook
@elissastein on twitter
51:25 to 52:22
The wrapup. Julia encouraged people to buy FLOW.